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Author Topic: 01. April 2018 Ban list community discussion    (Read 3332 times)
Remi
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« Reply #15 on: 10-03-2018, 12:53:38 AM »

First of all, I want to say that never ban a card just the sake of making a change to the banned list. The case may often be that there does not have to be any bans. Unbanning is a bit different case... It is refreshing to have new cards to play, and a card that was oppressive years ago, might not be anymore since the cards and decks overall have gotten stronger. Also, rather than looking at a single card and its powerlevel, you have to take a look of how diverse and healthy the meta is. Some cards may look powerful, but they require specific deckbuilding around them (like oath of druids and tolarian academy).


Here is the summary of my thoughts about banlist cards: The only card I would consider to be banned is Tainted Pact. I am not entirely sure if this needs to go, but if something has to be banned, here is your card.

And same for unbanlist cards:
-Mystical Tutor should be unbanned.
-Gifts should stay banned.



I'm going to take a look on each card on the banned list here:


Back to Basics/blood moon LEGAL
It may feel devastating and unfair when you opponent drops either one of these on t2/t3, and all you've got are nonbasic lands in play/hand. These enchantments give some free wins, but I don't think they should be banned. The nonbasic land hate is required in order to keep 1-2 color decks in format. There has to be some cards that keep the 3-5color decks in check. I would not like to see bans that shift the meta towards one that just has monotonic multicolor-midrange-value decks.


Demonic Tutor  LEGAL
Despite the obvious strength of this card I still think it is very healthy for the metagame! It is rather easy to cast (and splashed for) which means it doesn’t benefit one colour or type of deck a lot more than another. And while it is certainly more of a cornerstone in combo-oriented decks that can find their pieces more easily, at the same time it is helping “fair” decks find answers to the unfair things other decks might be tutoring up!
You could argue that DT balances itself.
I don't think there is a reason to ban demonic tutor. Take a look on Tainted Pact instead...there's your candidate if you want to ban a tutor.


Dig Trough Time  LEGAL
This is a strong card obviously, but not in early game. You propably never want to see it in your opening hand (or eve worse, DTT and cuise.). Again, instead of a single card, we need to look the bigger picture...Do we need to weaken the decks that play dig trough time? I don't think so. Being so bad early game, and better lategame balances this card out.


Treasure Cruise  LEGAL
Look the reply on DTT. This is the worse card out of these two


Entomb  LEGAL
This card has been a lot less powerful than I thought it would turn out to be. I have played against it, and with it. It gives a nice boost especially for reanimator, and also has some other uses. I think this was a good unban and brings in diversity. However, it has been around for a short period of time, and I would keep it on watchlist and under observation.


Imperial Seal  LEGAL
I have seen decks in my local meta put this in after unban, and take it out after a while. It is one mana cheaper than DT, but i think people overlook the drawbacks in it. Losing 2 life is relevant, at least in the games i play. Seal also isn't so good draw later in game since you don't get the card that turn, and the turn later it might be too late. Likewise on DT, I don't see any reason to ban this card either. It was unbanned last time, so it should stay on watchlist for another 6 months.


Mana Drain  LEGAL
Do decks that play this cad need to be weaken?
I think Control as at its weakest state at the moment. Counterspells have gotten worse (too slow), Creatures and Planeswalker have gotten better. It is pretty tough to keep up with the threats that people present to you and the speed of other decks. Especially if you try to 1 for 1 you opponent for the most part of the game until you can catch up with CA spells.
Control and Counterspells in general have been falling out of favour recently (most likely because of the Mystical Tutor ban). At the same time setting up the perfect post-Mana Drain turn hasn’t gotten any easier. While Mana Drain still remains one of the best answers for control decks, I think giving them some powerful tools is necessary.
I agree with these quotes, and I don't think Mana Drain should be banned.


Oath of Druids  LEGAL
This card is archetype enabler, same as tolarian academy. just for that reason it should stay unbanned. You can only play it in very specific kind of deck, and it sets massive limitations to deckbuilding. It is not a good draw later in game since it does absolutely nothing until your next turn.


Tainted Pact BAN/LEGAL
This is the best tutor as long as you know how to use it and don't exile your whole deck or some important pieces in your deck. Can't really be used unless you have 3+ colors in your deck, and thereforce pushes people away from building 1-2color decks. It is instant speed, which means you can leave your mana open for counterspell, removal or just to see what your opponents plays on his next turn and then get the best card for it. (DT is sorcery, and often you have to play on t2 when there's nothing on board yet, and you tapout for it.) The instant speed versus demonic tutor is very, very good advantage on tainted pact. You can just leave it in your hand, and go to counterspell if needed. Or to price of progress when your opponents taps out.
Another thing that must not be overlooked, is that tainted pact bypasses all effects that disrupt library searching (aven mindcensor/shadow of doubt just to mention few).
I'm not completely sure if this card should be banned, but this is the card is the most ban-worthy on the watchlist. What i'm saying is that if any card gets banned, Tainted Pact should be first to go.


Tolarian Academy  LEGAL
This card is archetype enabler, and for that reason it should not be banned. It does nothing by itself, and needs a built up board before it is effective. Also, needs deckbuilding around it. Decks that play this card have not been oppressive, and lack consistency. It is a strong card once you have all the required components for it, but it really is not banworthy.


Yawgmoth's Will  LEGAL
I don't see why this card should be banned, or why it should even be on the watchlist.






About unban watchlist:

Gifts Ungiven  BAN
"Search your library for up to four cards with different names and reveal them. "
they keyword in this card is "different", and that does not matter in singleton format. And Gifts is instand speed, which makes it a really strong card...We already have Intuition, which is doing kind of the same but not being as busted and giving you card advantage no matter what. I think this card should remain banned.


Mystial Tutor  LEGAL
Mystical tutor ban was really a surprise not only to me, but to other people I have discussed with. There are many other cards that i thought would have gotten the hammer before this card. What I've heard is that some local meta in Germany was involved with its heavy izzet presence. I don't think Mystical tutor belongs on the list of banned cards.

« Last Edit: 11-03-2018, 05:48:32 PM by Remi » Logged
Vazdru
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« Reply #16 on: 10-03-2018, 04:05:32 PM »

thanks for your input so far!

what do you think, is playing combo already the strongest line?

We've had
- two copies of Scapeshift in recent MGM Top 8 (+ 9th of Wolf) !
- Reanimator winning recent MGM
- Scapeshift winning Big Kahuna + Buried Alive-Combo second + Reanimator Top 4
- Helm-Combo winning in Slovakia
- Scapeshift winning MGM before (Schuhmacher)
- latest online winning lists are combos (Academy, Oath-Emrakul-Combo, Scapeshift)

Is this already a trend or just happened by accident?

Although everyone seems fine with current meta (like me - btw. I play combo-too  Wink) at the same i personally believe we should lower total number of tutors to reduce the consistency of combo decks which got Imperial Seal as new tool but haven't lost Demonic Tutor to balance this.

So i changed my mind and vote for Demonic Tutor to be BANNED (after some guys convinced me before everything is fine currently and nothing has to be changed) and Gifts Ungiven to remove from WL. I don't believe Demonic Tutor is still necessary for decks with a plan.
Furthermore I support WL-Entry of Tainted Pact although it is not the typical combo-tutor but gives midrange-decks often enough a change to "counter" combos. I think it is worth to be watched and discussed.

What would be your approach to keep those combos in check? Or is it ok for you that most recent winning decks are based on a combo?
Do the decks just need to play more "hate" (gy hate vs Reanimator, life-gain vs Scapeshift) to fix this?
« Last Edit: 10-03-2018, 04:08:45 PM by Vazdru » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: 10-03-2018, 06:02:46 PM »

thanks for your input so far!

what do you think, is playing combo already the strongest line?

We've had
- two copies of Scapeshift in recent MGM Top 8 (+ 9th of Wolf) !
- Reanimator winning recent MGM
- Scapeshift winning Big Kahuna + Buried Alive-Combo second + Reanimator Top 4
- Helm-Combo winning in Slovakia
- Scapeshift winning MGM before (Schuhmacher)
- latest online winning lists are combos (Academy, Oath-Emrakul-Combo, Scapeshift)

Is this already a trend or just happened by accident?

Although everyone seems fine with current meta (like me - btw. I play combo-too  Wink) at the same i personally believe we should lower total number of tutors to reduce the consistency of combo decks which got Imperial Seal as new tool but haven't lost Demonic Tutor to balance this.

So i changed my mind and vote for Demonic Tutor to be BANNED (after some guys convinced me before everything is fine currently and nothing has to be changed) and Gifts Ungiven to remove from WL. I don't believe Demonic Tutor is still necessary for decks with a plan.
Furthermore I support WL-Entry of Tainted Pact although it is not the typical combo-tutor but gives midrange-decks often enough a change to "counter" combos. I think it is worth to be watched and discussed.

What would be your approach to keep those combos in check? Or is it ok for you that most recent winning decks are based on a combo?
Do the decks just need to play more "hate" (gy hate vs Reanimator, life-gain vs Scapeshift) to fix this?

To evaluate tournament data better we would need bigger sampling, and to know how big portion of all tournaments everywhere that data contains. It would even help if we knew how big portion the data you mentioned is. Now it seems a coincidence.
From my experience, I don't think combos are being overwhelming. And even if they were, banning DT would be a wrong move.

I don't get the logic where you first unban tutors that are most powerful in combo decks, and then want to ban the tutor that EVERY deck with black mana source can play. How is this supposed to weaken combo against "fair" decks? I think it would pretty much do the opposite. Combo decks have demonic tutor (which often is not the best for named situation) + a ton of fringe tutors. "fair" decks have demonic tutor, and possibly a tainted pact (if playing 3+ colors). Banning DT will hit a deck much worse if that's the only one, or one of the few tutors it has.
And if you're saying there is still tainted pact, you are pushing people away from building 1-2 color decks where tainted pact can't be played.
There is nothing special in demonic tutor: It does not enable miracles, it is not 2+ combo pieces packed into one (like Entomb or Intuition are), it does not hide the card you searched from being discarded, It is a 2 mana sorcery.

Look at monoblue, izzet, jeskai, etc. Those decks had one good tutor which was mystical tutor, and it got taken away.

Rather than trying to ban the tutor that fetches the problematic card, maybe you should look at the problematic card itself: You have 6 Scapeshift decks mentioned there. (Still, I am not claiming any combo pieces should be banned.)
« Last Edit: 12-03-2018, 03:58:01 PM by Remi » Logged
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« Reply #18 on: 10-03-2018, 06:45:31 PM »

just to collect the availabble data (all listed events were held during last 12 month):

MGM #11
After Swiss: Scapeshift on 1 and 2
Winner: Reanimator

MGM #10
Winner: Scapeshift
Runner-Up: Reanimator

Big Kahuna
Winner: Scapeshift
Runner-Up: Buried-Alive Combo

Volcano Cup:
Winner: Oath-Emrakul-Combo

Cloudpost Bratislava HL Cup:
Winner: Helm-Combo

Cloudpost Bratislava HL Cup (Nationals Sideevent):
Winner: Reanimator
Runner-Up: RDW
Third: Helm-Combo

Tiki-Cup:
Finals: Scapeshift vs RDW (Split)

Oulu, Finland:
1. 4c bring to light *DECKLIST* (Scapeshift)
2. 5c oath reanimator
3. grixis reanimator
4. tendrils oath *DECKLIST*
https://deckstats.net/decks/71151/932956-4c-scapeshift-3-3-2018-tournam

.... feel free to add
« Last Edit: 10-03-2018, 06:48:56 PM by Vazdru » Logged

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« Reply #19 on: 11-03-2018, 10:27:39 AM »

Even Reanimator Lists play Dig through Time and Treasure Cruise, pretty obvious what's overpowering.
 
Dig is the best tutor for combo decks in the format, get your combo piece/second Tutor + solution/backup Counter EOT.



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haju
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« Reply #20 on: 11-03-2018, 02:26:08 PM »

I don't get the logic where you first unban tutors that are most powerful in combo decks, and then want to ban the tutor that EVERY deck with black mana source can play. How is this supposed to weaken combo against "fair" decks? I think it would pretty much do the opposite. Combo decks have demonic tutor (which often is not the best for named situation) + a ton of fringe tutors. "fair" decks have demonic tutor, and possibly a tainted pact (if playing 3+ colors). Banning DT will hit a deck much worse if that's the only one, or one of the few tutors it has.
And if you're saying there is still tainted pact, you are pushing people away from building 1-2 color decks where tainted pact can't be played.
There is nothing special in demonic tutor: It does not enable miracles, it is not 2+ combo pieces packed into one (like Entomb or Intuition are), it does not hide the card you searched from being discarded, It is a 2 mana sorcery.
This is the best paragraph I've read about Demonic Tutor in this thread. Banning it would be fatal to Control and Midrange, since  it is taking away the one good tutor these decks are playing. If Scapeshift is to strong, think about banning Bring to Light. If Reanimator is to strong, think about banning Entomb. If you want to ban a more general tutor, think about banning Imperial Seal.

I think, right now doing nothing would be the best for the format. Do not ban anything and do not unban anything. Let's look a little bit longer how the format evolves with the tools given. Whenever there is a new deck to beat a quite loud group demands bans. If I recall correctly, in recent history we had the Artifact Combo Deck, RDW, UR (which was hit by the ban of Mystical Tutor) and now Scapeshift and to some extend Reanimator dominating the format, with people demanding bans to weaken these decks.

Since there are not many frequently tournaments (outside Berlin and maybe some other cities) players and decks adopt new Tier 1 decks very slowly. Give these players some time. Not everybody has a regular Highlander FNM with great attendance.

TL;DR: I would not ban or unban anything.
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« Reply #21 on: 11-03-2018, 09:56:57 PM »

just to collect the availabble data (all listed events were held during last 12 month):

MGM #11
After Swiss: Scapeshift on 1 and 2
Winner: Reanimator

MGM #10
Winner: Scapeshift
Runner-Up: Reanimator

Big Kahuna
Winner: Scapeshift
Runner-Up: Buried-Alive Combo

Volcano Cup:
Winner: Oath-Emrakul-Combo

Cloudpost Bratislava HL Cup:
Winner: Helm-Combo

Cloudpost Bratislava HL Cup (Nationals Sideevent):
Winner: Reanimator
Runner-Up: RDW
Third: Helm-Combo

Tiki-Cup:
Finals: Scapeshift vs RDW (Split)

Oulu, Finland:
1. 4c bring to light *DECKLIST* (Scapeshift)
2. 5c oath reanimator
3. grixis reanimator
4. tendrils oath *DECKLIST*
https://deckstats.net/decks/71151/932956-4c-scapeshift-3-3-2018-tournam

.... feel free to add

Big Kahuna
Winner: Scapeshift
Runner-Up: Buried-Alive Combo
3rd: UB-Control
4th: Reanimator

Volcano Cup:
Winner: Oath-Emrakul-Combo
Runner-Up: UB-Control

Hula Cup:
Winner: Esper Control
Runner-Up: RDW

Before beeing crucified because of my opinion: I'm also playing blue cards and I'm not a desperate 4cBlood player.  Smiley

I added some additional results and want to point out that that the Mannheim Meta is recently dominated by Combo and Control decks, which all have one thing in common: They use blue cards. So in my opinion the council should consider to weaken blue in general, by banning either Treasure Cruise or Dig through Time. However I see no reason to ban both (yet). Non-blue decks like 4cBlood, GreenRamp, GruulBeats, etc. do have really hard times keeping up with the card advantage and have disappeared from the top of the standings recently. So imho the dominance of blue leads to an unhealthy meta (at least in Mannheim).
 
The unban of Entomb and Imperial Seal lead to the rise of Reanimator. I'm not sure if the unban took the deck to the next level or just encouraged players to give it another shot. I would give the meta some additional time to adapt and would not consider banning either of these cards right now. If it keeps dominating the council may reconsider bannning Entomb in the next banning period.

In addition I would consider to weaken Scapeshift, since it is just a dumb one card combo, which needs no specific build around like Oath of Druids for instance. Bring to Light or Scapeshift itself should be at least added to the watchlist to make a potential ban possible if the deck keeps dominating.

So for the upcomming bannings:

Ban: Treasure Cruise or Dig Through Time (I would prefer to see Treasure Cruise banned)
Unban: nothing
Add to watchlist: Bring to Light and/or Scapeshift

« Last Edit: 12-03-2018, 12:43:25 AM by mox-fanatic » Logged
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« Reply #22 on: 12-03-2018, 02:32:57 PM »

some good points

concerning Scapeshift / specific tutors
I basically don't wanna ban a (combo)deck in general but would like to have the chance to lower its consistency if needed.
So I don't vote for wl Scapeshift and/or Valakut but for adding Bring to Light.
I guess wl entry (-> not automatically ban) is needed as Scapeshift performs quite strong in different local metas for quite a long time now (see results above) and Bring to Light is such a specific tutor for Scapeshift.

concerning Demonic Tutor
I'm not conviced yet. Midrange is on the decline while Combo shines more than ever (maybe except the times where TPS was the best combo-deck).
So Demonic Tutor isn't a tutor which balance things imo. I played in Vulcano Cup in the deciding round vs Rector-Combo and won t3 on the play -> T1 land go, he plays tapped land whatever, T2 Demonic Tutor for missing tool - he plays Sylvan Library, T3 I combo (Buried-Alive-Combo) - Demonic made the difference, ban of Entomb wouldn't have changed a thing. Demonic Tutor just get you what needed without any restrictions (Reanimation-Spell, Buried Alive, Force of Will, Discard, Land....) and enforce such scenarios (which could be quite frustrating for the opponent) more than any other card in the format!
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« Reply #23 on: 12-03-2018, 05:52:40 PM »

Sorry, but your one play does not convince me Wink It basically comes down to: Opponent did not interact with combo player on the first three turns and lost. Yes, Demonic Tutor is a very strong (the strongest unconditional) tutor. Obviously, it is (very) good in Combo decks. But it is also very good in Control and Midrange decks. You are saying yourself that Demonic Tutor can get every card whatsoever, like the silver bullet a Control deck is playing or the finisher Midrange needs. None of these decks can play Rhystic Tutor like your deck can. I guess Muddle the Mixture would also be questionable.

I think it is weird to some extend that Imperial Seal and Entomb got recently unbanned, which cards strengthening Combo (and Reanimator) and now that those decks seem to be (I'm still not sure they are) too strong, you want to ban Demonic Tutor? I just briefly scanned through the lists, but if I recall correctly, most of the Scapeshift and Reanimator decks play Imperial Seal. Why not ban it, again (Ctrl+z anyone?)

Why do you want to ban cards that are strong in general (but also played in decks that are totally fine) instead of cards that are strong only in the archetype you want to weaken (and maybe only played in this archetype)?

Last, there will always be moments in Magic that are frustrating for the opponent, e.g., loosing due to a bad draw/mana screw/mana flood, Angle Shooting, salty opponents, and many more. Demonic Tutor is like playing some cards twice (just a little bit better, because up until resolving it can be any card left in your deck) but is Demonic Tutor frustrating or the card you looked for? Also, there is always the other point of view: loosing because you are not finding one of your cards needed in the matchup. Again, most decks cannot reasonably play as many tutors as Combo decks can.
« Last Edit: 12-03-2018, 09:16:36 PM by haju » Logged
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« Reply #24 on: 12-03-2018, 09:18:09 PM »

c&p from wl changes Jan. 1 2017:

The tutor setting in highlander has always been a controversial object. How many tutors are necessary for a healthy meta? And which one? There were epic debates over the different tutors in the long history of our format. Many people consider Demonic Tutor as best tutor overall and always wonder why Demonic Tutur is unbanned while other has been banned. Our banning policy is founded on following principles five reasons (http://highlandermagic.info/index.php?id=faq). Imperial Seal was also kept banned by an unofficially reasoning #6 - the price barrier. Since the recent judge foil reprint this has been partly fallen away. At least we decided to have an "overall-picture" view on our tutor setting again and to discuss the current one on the whole. That's why we also added Vampiric Tutor to the watch-list. It is argued that the format should have that one good tutor, which has been Demonic Tutor from the beginning, maybe there is time for a reallocation. It is also said that splashing for Demonic is too easy with no real cost, while Vampiric could perhaps remove that reason. Vampiric is more often harder to interact than Demonic, but a successful counter play to nullify Vampiric Tutor costs to its caster a draw and 2 life, which favors opposing control, and aggro strategies.

Both Imperial Seal and Vampiric Tutor seem comparable in power-level to Demonic or Mystical Tutor, but they shine more in combo-decks and decks with clear gameplan but less in midrange-goodstuff-piles. At the cost of 2 life, sorcery rather instant speed, card disadvantage, and the fact that present meta is lacking a combo presence (Vazdru:  Grin Wink) with shift to burn, we should take both under a scrutiny.

Indeed Entomb has a different effect on the game play and it is still comparable to the other new introduced tutors on the watchlist. But Entomb is even more a combo-tutor than the others and usually no option for most Aggro-, Midrange- or Control-decks. Entomb is obviously THE tutor for graveyard-based decks, especially of course for reanimator. We will evaluate how strong those decks perform which could have any use of Entomb in the next months.
« Last Edit: 12-03-2018, 09:20:16 PM by Vazdru » Logged

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« Reply #25 on: 13-03-2018, 05:32:37 PM »

c&p from wl changes Jan. 1 2017:

The tutor setting in highlander has always been a controversial object. How many tutors are necessary for a healthy meta? And which one? There were epic debates over the different tutors in the long history of our format. Many people consider Demonic Tutor as best tutor overall and always wonder why Demonic Tutur is unbanned while other has been banned. Our banning policy is founded on following principles five reasons (http://highlandermagic.info/index.php?id=faq). Imperial Seal was also kept banned by an unofficially reasoning #6 - the price barrier. Since the recent judge foil reprint this has been partly fallen away. At least we decided to have an "overall-picture" view on our tutor setting again and to discuss the current one on the whole. That's why we also added Vampiric Tutor to the watch-list. It is argued that the format should have that one good tutor, which has been Demonic Tutor from the beginning, maybe there is time for a reallocation. It is also said that splashing for Demonic is too easy with no real cost, while Vampiric could perhaps remove that reason. Vampiric is more often harder to interact than Demonic, but a successful counter play to nullify Vampiric Tutor costs to its caster a draw and 2 life, which favors opposing control, and aggro strategies.

Splashing Demonic Tutor is easy. Correct. But that should be an argument for allowing Demonic Tutor, not against it. Every deck that plays black can play Demonic Tutor. That's good for every archetype.

I also don't get the reasoning for Vampiric Tutor. It is often harder to interact with than Demonic Tutor (an assessment I totally agree with). If (big if) one successfully interacts with it (has a counter play) then it punishes the player more (which is again correct in my opinion). But how do you interact? In the current meta Vampiric Tutor is just strengthening the decks that are (too?) strong; the card disadvantage and the two life are something a Combo deck does not care about if it simply wins with the card it tutored for.

Both Imperial Seal and Vampiric Tutor seem comparable in power-level to Demonic or Mystical Tutor, but they shine more in combo-decks and decks with clear gameplan but less in midrange-goodstuff-piles. At the cost of 2 life, sorcery rather instant speed, card disadvantage, and the fact that present meta is lacking a combo presence (Vazdru:  Grin Wink) with shift to burn, we should take both under a scrutiny.

Since the meta isn't lacking Combo decks any more, there is no reason to include more instant speed tutors to the format.

Indeed Entomb has a different effect on the game play and it is still comparable to the other new introduced tutors on the watchlist. But Entomb is even more a combo-tutor than the others and usually no option for most Aggro-, Midrange- or Control-decks. Entomb is obviously THE tutor for graveyard-based decks, especially of course for reanimator. We will evaluate how strong those decks perform which could have any use of Entomb in the next months.[/i]

That's why I think that Entomb is a great addition to the format. It allows something unique. Still, if (and again I think it's currently questionable) combo decks are too strong, then it would be wrong to ban Demonic Tutor. A ban of a tutor that can only be  (or is mostly) used in Combo decks would be a favorable solution to the dominance of the Combo archetype.
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« Reply #26 on: 14-03-2018, 07:00:07 PM »

Regarding to the discussion on un/banning tutors:

I wouldn't like to see Demonic Tutor and/or Tainted Pact on the banned list. This will not improve the situation of the current meta, which is shaped by the strong results of Combo Decks - namely Scapeshift and Reanimator. Imho it would be better practise to ban/watchlist the specific tutors, which are only played by the dominating decks. This would be Bring to Light (Scapeshift) and Entomb (Reanimator). Banning Demonic Tutor and/or Tainted Pact will punish the midrange decks even more, because they have a smaller variety of strong tutors to choose from.

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« Reply #27 on: 18-03-2018, 09:42:01 PM »

Hi everybody, my opinion on the banned list is the following:

Looking at the last tournements, a lot decks where somewhat Black Reanimator / Combo Decks, with a more or less controlling blue part.

I.m.h.o. especially the unbanning of entomb  has pushed reanimator / reanimator combo over the top. The main problem I have with it is beeing an instant speed tutor for any creature (or even life from the loam, if needed).
Just compare it with natural Order: I think order is in fact worse in the standard green deck than entomb in a reanimator shell, because it comes down 1-2 turns earler and gives you "any" creature, not just a green one. Natural order was just rebanned, because it prooved too strong.

Mystical Tutor should remain banned, also because it is an instant and enables "miracles".

Emperial Seal however is fine, since it is a sorcery and has the downside of loosing life.

One important thing I have to note is that (partly) Blue seem be very dominant - there are even decks which play maindeck hate against blue (Pyroblast, I am looking at you).
This is definetely I sign that blue is to strong right now.
The most problematic card in my opinion is dig through time. This card often wins on the spot and is difficult to prevent from being cast, even with graveyard hate, without playing blue oneself.

The worst thing one could do now, is the unbanning of gifts ungiven. This would push blue /black shells even further!

If there is something that is underrepresented in the top x of tournements, it is Creature / Value Decks like 4c Blood, Elves, Tokens, etc.
Therefore one could think about Banning the hoser cards, which were named by other users also:
Which are: Blood Moon and Oath of Druids, both of which are nearly unbeatable.

Generally I think, the worse tutors are, the more diversity there is. If there is no demonic tutor anymore, combo decks will probably play the more wacky cards like Gamble or being less consistent in general, which is a good thing for the format.

« Last Edit: 24-03-2018, 01:10:33 PM by gamble » Logged
Remi
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« Reply #28 on: 25-03-2018, 12:20:58 PM »

Dig is the best tutor for combo decks in the format, get your combo piece/second Tutor + solution/backup Counter EOT.

This is probably the first time I've heard someone claim Dig Trough Time being the best tutor for a combo deck. It is not a tutor, it is a cantrip...and a very slow one.
In 60 card format where you play 4 copies of each card, DTT might work more as a tutor, but the case is totally different in singleton format with 100 cards minimum.
I personally stopped playing DTT in my combo deck because it takes too long to build up the graveyard, and you still don't get the cards you want since it is not a tutor.

After playing more and attending some tournaments in Finland, I dare to claim that the meta is very good and diverse at the moment. I have not experienced "too combo heavy meta" or heard people talking about one. There are few combos here and there, but they are neither overly presented or overwhelming.

I think the most wise decision right now would be to let the ban/unban list remain as it is for another 6 months.
« Last Edit: 25-03-2018, 12:23:48 PM by Remi » Logged
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